Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said, "the flag is moving."

The other said, "the wind is moving."

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them, "not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."

This epigram is an apt introduction to the musical partnership of Brandon Valdivia and Colin Fisher, whose work together as Not The Wind, Not the Flag transcends the general limits of a band. Genre and even instrumentation are never fixed; it is simply the sound of two minds moving together. Joe Strutt spoke with the pair about tangible points of origin and abstract realms of destination — but it's the journey, of course, that matters most.

[Not The Wind, Not The Flag play WL587 with Chicago Underground Duo and King Weather at The Garrison on Thursday, May 1. Top photo by Doc Dunn.]

Wavelength: What kind of stuff were you listening to/playing when you first became musicians? And then, what was your gateway into improvised music?

Colin Fisher: Singing in church were probably my first deeper connections with music... hearing people singing harmonies was probably my first experience with improvising with form, until the practice became commonplace. I listened to lots of rock, classical and folk growing up, via my parents (Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ravi Shankar, Bob Dylan, etc).

Brandon Valdivia: Aye, I started playing the recorder when I was like 8 years old! I was really into the Phantom of the Opera soundtrack, Talking Heads, Pink Floyd, Aerosmith, Bob Marley, and was hearing lots of Salsa and Latin music. Basically whatever my parents were listening to, but I totally had my ears open and some music really spoke to me.

My gateway to free improvising was reading an interview with Billy Martin from Medeski Martin and Wood and checking out the Live at the Tonic record, that was after I had a bit of experience with my rap/rock band in high school doing one free improv/structured improv song. I think we were inspired by Led Zeppelin and the Tea Party, and how they would have certain open parts in their live sets.

CF: When I first started playing guitar it was hardcore music that inspired me (Minor Threat, Dead Kennedys, etc) and I moved through shoegaze, indie-rock, etc... J. Mascis [Dinosaur Jr.] was my guitar hero for a long time... The band Polvo changed my life when I was 17 or 18. Eventually I heard Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come and Miles Davis' and that was my gateway into the world of jazz and improvised music.

Ornette inspired me to pick up alto sax. John Coltrane's Interstellar Space was a formative influence, ways of expanding from more conventional melodic/modal and rhythmic phrasing into liberated spaces of expression... I started to hear sounds bigger than myself and felt fascinated by this process because it was a direct analog to my own spiritual exploration.

BV: Once I got to music school I was doing free improv with my friends, and listening to John Coltrane. He was probably the deepest, most serious influence at that time and continues to be so.

WL: How did NTW get started? You guys had previously played together in some other stuff, I think, but what happened for this duo to become its own thing?

BV: NTW started basically out of I Have Eaten The City, our trio with Nick Storring. Nick got busier and busier with his schooling and other interests, and Colin and I got more and more interested and invested in playing together, so we decided to give ourselves a band name and start a journey together.

WL: From what I’ve observed from watching groups like NTW, I’ve come up with the following equation: Improvisation = chops + amnesia + listening. Discuss.

BV: Discussion. Okay. Improvisation to me is not a formula. Or it’s many, many different formulas. One doesn’t need chops to improvise. One doesn’t need amnesia to improvise. One doesn’t even need listening to improvise. Sometimes you can just ignore someone.

Improvisation is so many things. Like Colin would say, we’re improvising all the time in our life. Like right now as I’m typing. Or when we’re dancing. Or when we’re walking down the street. It’s all the time. You don’t need any specific musical techniques!

CF: I agree with Brandon.

There is no formula to improvisation because we are living an improvisation every day of our lives... every moment is a completely new relationship in terms of our own life process to the new conditions present to us... if we choose to see it.

Instead of amnesia, I might suggest a sort of conscious inhibition in relationship to the burden of our associations so we can see each moment anew in which our agency, our experience/training/intellect/etc, can respond unfettered to the stimulus of our experience in the present.

I also like Yusef Lateef's word he supplements for improvisation “Autophysiopsychic”.

WL: One of the outstanding things about NTW is the near-telepathic bond you guys seem to have while playing. After all this time, are you ever surprised by what you hear across the stage? Do you ever worry that you know each other too well, and are at risk of falling into patterns or having rote reactions?

BV: It’s great because we both grow and change as players and as people all the time, so yes, there are still surprises! Sometimes we even surprise ourselves by using a new technique or finding a new sound, it’s what happens when you are continually challenging yourself by trusting in the moment and trusting in yourself to react accordingly. It’s one of the most beautiful, fulfilling things about doing free improv.

Although because Colin and I have played so much together, I would maybe even be hesitant to use the term “free-improv” with us. We’re developing compositions over time. Like even over the span of two years! Then we’ll try something else. Or we’ll do one show with a different instrumentation , and then come back to revisit the composition and redevelop it. It’s a continually developing organism.

Sometimes we go to the same places, and that’s okay. Especially when we’re on tour playing every night for a few weeks straight. Some folks always want to change and do fresh things all the time, and if they repeat themselves then they feel like they’ve failed or something, but I feel like we’re okay with playing something similar to what we did last night, or the night before, or that one show two years ago. Because even when it is similar, it’s never really exactly the same.

CF: I think a great example was the set we just played for your birthday show at the Tranzac [stripped down to just drums and saxophone]. That was something we’ve never done before and I found myself surprised, yet somehow not surprised, at all the beautiful moments converging… a constantly changing landscape.

We’re always growing as musicians and are supported by the deep friendship we have fostered along the way. I think our friendship is paramount to the music we make.

The music we are playing is, like Brandon said, long-form compositions that unfold over the duration of years sometimes. But the larger gestalt of that is our lives... our lives that we share together is the piece that we’re playing — filled with all of our personal details, our explorations of politics, spirituality, various cultures and ideas. As much as our individual explorations sometimes take us far apart for periods of time, there is love for Brandon as a friend and collaborator that I hold in a very auspicious regard: it is the unity of experience and theory, of the individual and collective. Maybe even an experiential proof of how those binaries are some sort of fallacy…

WL: Sometimes you also get to mix it up with new collaborators, like the recent show you did at the Music Gallery with NYC free jazz double bass legend William Parker. What was that like?

BV: Playing with William was an honour. He is such an inspiration to us both and is a living master musician/healer/shaman/Bodhisattva like his long time collaborator Hamid Drake has said.

We felt like we would just do what we do, and William would be there with us, no matter where we went. We had just finished a US tour and had played like 15 shows in a row just us two, so adding a bass player, especially William Parker (!), was a bit odd at first — just 'cuz it’s like being so used to one person in bed, and then there’s another person there who you really want to get with too, so it just takes a bit of getting used to.

He’s a master improviser. We met up, played for a while, and then said goodbye. Now we’re looking to release the recording in the near future. What a humbling experience to play with Mr. Parker and with Colin.

CF: It was a completely humbling experience... I agree with everything Brandon said! It's also humbling to recognize Brandon and I as equal collaborators with William. We are peers sharing the beautiful legacy of those that have came before us. The expression is something that transcends localities, bodies, cultures…

It's an active listening that enables us to recognize our facility not just as receivers but as creators. Our relationship to powers greater than ourselves that define materiality/sound, that is our vehicle for those forces.

WL: Musically or otherwise, what’s inspiring you in Toronto right now? And what about beyond T.O.?

BV: Nice question! Yes, lots in Toronto! Petra Glynt, Lido Pimienta, Prince Nifty, HVYWTR, the whole Healing Power crew, Zones, el Doomsquad, all those Maracatu and Forró bands, The 6th Letter, A New Tradition, Beehive Collective, Aluna Theatre, No One Is Illegal.

Beyond T.O.: Urian Sarmiento and Maria Jose Salgado going all over Colombia to research, document and support the traditional music, the MAYHEM Crew in Copenhagen, Tanya Taqaq, Kendrick Lamar, the Sahel Sounds Label, Zuzuka Poderosa, Angel Haze, Chris Corsano, the collective that was at La Brique (Xarah Dion, Marie Davidson and their crew) in Montreal... Shabazz Palaces, MIA, Calle 13!

CF: There is such a wonderful community here in Toronto I feel connected to.. so many friends and allies.

Community becomes such a sprawling, huge, beautiful experience once you’ve been out on the road a bunch like Brandon and I have. So many good friends all over the place who I consider my kin.

WL: You guys have a nice range of sounds on your recorded efforts. Any new albums in the pipeline? Any studio work with your other projects that you’re eager to have the world hear?

BV: Ya! Like I said earlier, we’ll be releasing the live recording we did with William Parker soon! A record with Buffalo saxophonist Steve Baczowski is in the planning stages, and of course more of just us two!

I’m releasing a new Mas Aya LP this year on Tomaturj, and maybe Healing Power [and Mas Aya of course plays Wavelength next Wednesday, May 7 at the Garrison for CMW], and have plans to record a collab/clash with Lido Pimienta!

I think Colin has a bunch of things coming out this year with other projects.

CF: I have a record called Suspended Definition out on Tzadik with Many Arms, my buds from Philly/NYC. We’re playing NXNE on June 18th for our release show.

I Have Eaten the City has a tape coming out on Tombed Visions very soon! our first release in ages!

I just finished recording an amazing record with my good pals in Bernice, which will most likely be coming out later this year or next. Plus there will be a tour this summer with Devon Sproule.

There's also a duo record with drummer Mike Gennaro, and a record with viola player James Annette and upright bassist Josh Cole, which is my first recording as a drummer. And a power trio record with Oneida drummer Kid Millions and Many Arms bassist Johnny Deblasse. There's also a trio record with drummer Julius Masri and saxophonist Keir Neuringer.

Plus solo projects also in development, and an unmixed record by the supergroup Bad Breath, another Body Help record. SO many exciting things happening this year and into 2015!

WL: That's amazing! Thanks for your time.

BV: As always, it’s our pleasure Joe. One love.

CF: Thank you for all your questions and presence in the community! xo